Re: Add Code of Conduct (issue 575620043 by address@hidden)

[Thomas Morley]

Hi all,

Being on the lists for many years now I remember only a few posts
which were inappropriate:

Long time ago. there was a user with a post others felt uncomfortable
with. But Graham denied a problem. But there was a followup which
definitely was.
And Graham told the user that it was not appropriate. As a result the
problem was cured.

I once told a user myself not to write about politics. As a result the
problem was solved.

There was a user definitely offending all, especially developers.
Several complaints were posted, even the list-admin was called, but he
didn't ban him. Iirc, he recommended everyone who can't bear him, to
set him on a blacklist. I may recall wrongly, but that's what I
finally did.
Sometime later this user stopped posting...

If I remember correctly these are _all_ problematic posts (ofcourse I
may have missed some)
Do we need a CoC for them?
I doubt.
While I think that the proposed CoC-behaviour should be naturally, I'm
uncomfortable with the proposed consequences for violating it. At
least in the past we got back on track more or less pretty easily,
without CoC.

Now to David and his communication.
I'm aware people often feel offended by him.
Though, we all know or at least should know about his communication
problems, I'm absolutely sure he knows about them, likely better than
we.

I always found that most of the bad feelings resulted of misunderstandings.
Sometimes David misunderstood, and replied strange. Once his
misunderstanding is cleared he usually corrects his post.
Sometimes the recipient of his post _misunderstands_ a post as
offending, while it is meant most simply as a description or
recommendation.

As an example look at the review of one of my own patches
https://codereview.appspot.com/270640043
Quoting dak:
"This looks like a total mess."
"Total waste of effort."
"Aaand another one."

Ofcourse quotation is without any context (you may red it up, if you want)
You can _interpret_ this as trashing my patch at the worst, but  I'm
used to take his posts literal, i.e.:
It _was_ a "total mess" -> I improved the patch
I argued against "waste of effort" -> convinced him
And there _was_ another issue -> I improved the patch

Finally the patch came through.

I'd like to recommend that everyone argues with him, if you think he is wrong.
Otherwise take his posts literal and _not_ offending.




Am Do., 6. Feb. 2020 um 00:32 Uhr schrieb Janek Warchoł
<address@hidden>:

> śr., 5 lut 2020 o 14:41 David Kastrup <address@hidden> napisał(a):
>
> > Janek Warchoł <address@hidden> writes:
> > > In short, it's been found (I think Mike will be able to give you specific
> > > examples) that having code of conduct encourages contributions from
> > > newcomers.
> >
> > I rather think that a friendly atmosphere encourages contributions from
> > newcomers.  Whether an upfront requirement to commit to a set of rules
> > with an enforcement team is perceived as a guarantee of a friendly
> > atmosphere is debatable. [...]
> > the principal impact [of Code of Conduct] to be expected on
> > LilyPond development appears to have an official body entitled to
> > censure my behavior and eventually, out of a sense of duty, remove me.
> >
>
> Do you think that approaching other people with suspicion like this (i.e.
> expecting they have worst intentions, which is getting close to a
> conspiracy theory) contributes to a friendly atmosphere? I don't think so.

I would take David post _literal_
He simply told us from his previous bad experiences and his feelings
it may happen again here, now based on the proposed CoC.

I would be very sad to loose him.

> And honestly, I'm very sorry to read something like this from you. It made
> me regret coming back to the project, and almost made me want to resign
> again.

I would be very sad to loose you (again) as well!
Janek, I always had the feeling you love a community with all people
"on the same track", though David is "special".

So to repeat myself, everyone should take his post literal, not offending!


I'd love to see a community bearing different personalities, even
personalities with problematic conversation skills.
For me it's like strange english from a non-native speaker (like me).
It's sometimes difficult and/or tedious to understand but mostly worth
the attention.


Well, long mail for a non-native speaker, and I still have the feeling
I didn't express myself very well.
Though, I did the best I could.

Thanks,
  Harm