Re: Add Code of Conduct (issue 575620043 by address@hidden)

[David Nalesnik]

On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 7:37 PM Thomas Morley <address@hidden> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Being on the lists for many years now I remember only a few posts
> which were inappropriate:
>
> Long time ago. there was a user with a post others felt uncomfortable
> with. But Graham denied a problem. But there was a followup which
> definitely was.
> And Graham told the user that it was not appropriate. As a result the
> problem was cured.
>
> I once told a user myself not to write about politics. As a result the
> problem was solved.
>
> There was a user definitely offending all, especially developers.
> Several complaints were posted, even the list-admin was called, but he
> didn't ban him. Iirc, he recommended everyone who can't bear him, to
> set him on a blacklist. I may recall wrongly, but that's what I
> finally did.
> Sometime later this user stopped posting...
>
> If I remember correctly these are _all_ problematic posts (ofcourse I
> may have missed some)
> Do we need a CoC for them?
> I doubt.
> While I think that the proposed CoC-behaviour should be naturally, I'm
> uncomfortable with the proposed consequences for violating it. At
> least in the past we got back on track more or less pretty easily,
> without CoC.
>
> Now to David and his communication.
> I'm aware people often feel offended by him.
> Though, we all know or at least should know about his communication
> problems, I'm absolutely sure he knows about them, likely better than
> we.
>
> I always found that most of the bad feelings resulted of misunderstandings.
> Sometimes David misunderstood, and replied strange. Once his
> misunderstanding is cleared he usually corrects his post.
> Sometimes the recipient of his post _misunderstands_ a post as
> offending, while it is meant most simply as a description or
> recommendation.
>
> As an example look at the review of one of my own patches
> https://codereview.appspot.com/270640043
> Quoting dak:
> "This looks like a total mess."
> "Total waste of effort."
> "Aaand another one."
>
> Ofcourse quotation is without any context (you may red it up, if you want)
> You can _interpret_ this as trashing my patch at the worst, but  I'm
> used to take his posts literal, i.e.:
> It _was_ a "total mess" -> I improved the patch
> I argued against "waste of effort" -> convinced him
> And there _was_ another issue -> I improved the patch
>
> Finally the patch came through.
>
> I'd like to recommend that everyone argues with him, if you think he is wrong.
> Otherwise take his posts literal and _not_ offending.
>
>
>
>
> Am Do., 6. Feb. 2020 um 00:32 Uhr schrieb Janek Warchoł
> <address@hidden>:
>
> > śr., 5 lut 2020 o 14:41 David Kastrup <address@hidden> napisał(a):
> >
> > > Janek Warchoł <address@hidden> writes:
> > > > In short, it's been found (I think Mike will be able to give you 
> > > > specific
> > > > examples) that having code of conduct encourages contributions from
> > > > newcomers.
> > >
> > > I rather think that a friendly atmosphere encourages contributions from
> > > newcomers.  Whether an upfront requirement to commit to a set of rules
> > > with an enforcement team is perceived as a guarantee of a friendly
> > > atmosphere is debatable. [...]
> > > the principal impact [of Code of Conduct] to be expected on
> > > LilyPond development appears to have an official body entitled to
> > > censure my behavior and eventually, out of a sense of duty, remove me.
> > >
> >
> > Do you think that approaching other people with suspicion like this (i.e.
> > expecting they have worst intentions, which is getting close to a
> > conspiracy theory) contributes to a friendly atmosphere? I don't think so.
>
> I would take David post _literal_
> He simply told us from his previous bad experiences and his feelings
> it may happen again here, now based on the proposed CoC.
>
> I would be very sad to loose him.
>
> > And honestly, I'm very sorry to read something like this from you. It made
> > me regret coming back to the project, and almost made me want to resign
> > again.
>
> I would be very sad to loose you (again) as well!
> Janek, I always had the feeling you love a community with all people
> "on the same track", though David is "special".
>
> So to repeat myself, everyone should take his post literal, not offending!
>
>
> I'd love to see a community bearing different personalities, even
> personalities with problematic conversation skills.
> For me it's like strange english from a non-native speaker (like me).
> It's sometimes difficult and/or tedious to understand but mostly worth
> the attention.
>
>
> Well, long mail for a non-native speaker, and I still have the feeling
> I didn't express myself very well.
> Though, I did the best I could.
>

+1

Thank you, Harm.

The other David